activies, not statements of faith). This passage appears to me about the situation immediately after God's victory, so it is surely not placed during a time when the New Jerusalem has already been established for a long time. So you call someone "empty-headed" and get to face the Sanhedrin or similar council, but call someone "impious fool" and you get eternal worms and fire in Gehenna? But that statement says nothing about God no longer being God after the ages. The "captivity". There are a dozen parables by Christ talking about salvation and punishment – I can't think of one which has one first being shut out and then being admitted after all – not the foolish virgins with their lamps, not the Rich Man begging poor Lazarus, not the one being thrown out because of his not wearing a wedding garment etc. For the others in the series, see The myth of the rope around the high priest’s ankle and The myth that all the Apostles were martyred, Pestilence. They might as well say nothing on this issue. The New Jerusalem will contain people body and soul living in space in time, with God in happiness for all eternity. Jesus used this Greek word for hell. I just got done reading Rob Bell's new book, and he relies heavily on this garbage myth as evidence that Jesus' teachings on hell are metaphorical. Matthew 25) of the "blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" and of the "cursed … into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels … these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.". Thus in the statements of Jesus that refer to Gehenna, it was typical of the status of the things and the individuals who are rejected as unfit for the kingdom. Gehenna. There were some that believed in such things but they all went into trouble with it. The wonderful promise that is "You lot will experience everlasting happiness while the rest of the world suffers unimaginable torment for eternity"? 129-30), There’s only one problem. "Even when the term "aionian" is applied to God Himself, this does not mean it is describing Him as eternal. (the only other times 'dogs' 'tables' and 'crumbs of bread' are mentioned is in the context of a gentile asking Jesus for help. "Everlasting is only aionios in Greek, so that everlasting hell becomes only age-during garbage dump". That little valley is a likely spot. Concerning this valley, I've heard that the blood of sacrificed Passover lambs ran down this hillside. "age-during" isn't a word but if you are insisting on such literalist readings, you should be consistent and take things literally. He is the creator that loves his creation so much that he gave his only Son who was the only sacrifice Holy enough for the sins of mankind who defeated death that we may have the hope of everlasting life! Rather than restate much that has been said before, let me just point you and any interested readers to a couple of articles on the issue of eternal punishment (which was not the subject of this post). James A. Montgomery observes this medieval commentator’s logic, but does not accept it. That wouldn't happen until the 6th century. In Old Testament times, children had been sacrificed to idols there (2 Kings 23:10); in Jesus’ day, it was a place burning with constant fires to consume the waste that was thrown there. Jude uses the fate of Sodom as recounted in Genesis as a type of divine punishment. Maybe you guys think you are as smart as our all knowing all seeing creator. So you don't want to "blot them out", you want to "reconcile all" – but again this is just utter disrespect to human beings and their free will, which in turn is a denial of the opportunity to love. There was not a trash pile perpetually burning. There are plenty of parallel verses that teach the salvation of all that must be explained away if you want to cling to a doctrine of eternal torture. Support Miqlat. For example, eternal salvation doesn't mean God is saving us daily (rather an eternal result of a one time event) just as eternal judgment not mean God is tormenting the lost daily, rather the one time event (the second death) had eternal result as well. Murder hornets. Where are you getting this? The people in the surrounding areas dumped their trash in Gehenna, where it burned day and night. I find it much easier to explain passages such as Matthew 25:46 in light of the above verses. So at that point there will be no more "aionian" life, it will be the same life as was lived in the "aion", but now it will continue outside of time. 9:28 or was that Is. Some scholars claim Gehenna later became a “ garbage dump,” where refuse was subsequently burned. There is it — Gehenna seen from a hilltop in Jerusalem. The pictures on this website are copyrighted and may be used only with permission. Nonetheless, despite the details of II Kings 21 & 23 and II Chronicles 33 noting Manasseh’s sins and Josiah’s reforms and the judgments of Jeremiah (chs. Isaiah had already envisioned Topheth as the fiery destiny of an enemy of God. Even though the word “Gehenna” comes from the Valley of Hinnom, simply rendering it as “garbage dump” or “valley of waste disposal” or “burning garbage” could not be an accurate translations, because that’s not what Jesus and the apostles meant when they used the word. [Jude uses the fate of Sodom as recounted in Genesis as a type of divine punishment. Even if I couldn't convince you, I am glad that you got something out of it. Jerome is one, Christ may be another. The interpretive contortions the universalists and eternal tormenters engaged in made my head hurt! The valley of Gehenna was not only filled with garbage, refuse, and sewage, but also with dead bodies that people were trying to dispose of (due to crime, sickness, poverty, or shame). You brought up a very good point. An article looking at Gehenna in the OT and why Jesus may have chosen to use this word. No council ever decreed whether someone was a "Christian". This is then used as an example of a future judgment. The case may have been overstated, but may not be completely wrong. But no matter what they eat, do not die, THEY LEAVE WHAT THEY ARE EATING TO BECOME A FLY OR MOTH. The websites I had read did not mention all of this, it seems that they were trying to say that it wasn't his teaching on the final salvation of all men that got him in trouble, it was all the stuff that Origen tacked on to that. Marcellus was important at Nicea (325) and still condemned a heretic later, with even one line in the Creed directed against him. There were people in Rome long after universalism was known in the church, whom Augustine called Christians, who believed in universal salvation, and still no decree from any council stating that a belief in an "eternal hell" was necessary to sound faith. (Actually it says "from one new moon to IT'S next", meaning the same new moon one year later)Time is clearly still in view in this context. For all those who think that the 2 times eternal in Mat.25:46 must be the same is talking nonsense,in 5 other verses it also happens and in those it cannot be the same at all.Romans 16:25-26 and Titus 1:2 and Galatians 1:4-5 and Ephesians 3:9-11 and 1 Timotheüs 6:17-19 So how you explain that hell is pagan nonsense God is love!!! Instead we have bibles that translate 'aion' and 'aionion' in several different ways. First, you still seem to think you are in a position to lecture Christ on how to conduct his affairs. These words can be used to describe something that is eternal, but this meaning has to be derived from the object they are used in conjunction with. But you making another mistake: so seem to think that if Jude and Ezekiel contradicted each other, such a contradiction could be solved by your screwed universalist theology. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. What has that got to do with it. As for giving the 'damned' (an English word that has changed in meaning since being put in English bibles) their 'just desserts', in Jesus' day there were two common words for what we think of as "punishment". Even though the word "Gehenna" comes from the Valley of Hinnom, simply rendering it as "garbage dump" or "valley of waste disposal" or "burning garbage" could not be an accurate translations, because that's not what Jesus and the apostles meant when they used the word. Calling God "The God of the ages" (aions) is stating a fact, God is God over the ages. And Christ spoke (e.g. And speaking of context, you are ignoring the context that Jesus is alluding to in this passage, and that is Isaiah 66:23-24. be anathema!) Regarding individuals, councils excommunicated those that refused to accept a definition reached (or for crimes i.e. There is a lot of other stuff about fallen spirits changing form, etc., that makes it understandable how he would get into trouble. Which brings us back to our starting point: it is eternal for good and bad or age-enduring for both, not this for one and that for another. Did Isaiah lie? That's why Jerome translated it aeternam in Latin as well, because he knew what was implied by the Greek. City officials occasionally sought to get rid of the garbage and also cover the stench by igniting the refuse on fire. As for Mark 9:44, if you look at Isaiah 66:24 you will see it is bodies that are being eaten by 'worms' and fire. I confused the council of Nicea with the Nicene Creed that came out of the council at Constantinople later on. After the ages, there will be no need to describe Him to anyone because all will know Him fully, just as they also are known by Him now. Topheth has been ready for the king for a long time now. Not just any garbage but a place for dead animals and various leftover animal parts that had been sacrificed in the temple. Jesus actually talked of kolasis aionian – temporary correction/discipline. She offers the following highly imaginative description of this burning refuse heap, which serves as a nice, detailed amalgamation of all the descriptions I’ve heard of it over the years. Same with "aionian life". He writes: I consulted over a dozen study Bibles on Matthew 5:22 and no less than eight of them made a reference to the rubbish heap. You however are reading things into the words "aion" and "aionian". Reading these posts made me happy to be a conditionist! You are also disrespectful towards the damned – it is one thing, as God does, to give them their just deserts, but quite another to simply blot them out from existence and pretend everything's fine. "Why the need for a gulf to keep those in Abraham's bosom from going to the other side where there was torment?". But "the flesh" has nothing to dod with worms and fire. Everything is all tied together in one. He is not being literal here, He is speaking about cutting off or getting rid of something of the carnal man. In the other dozen or so, to get the idea of "eternal" you have to read it into the words "aion" and "aionian". It is a reasonable deduction that there would be a dump and also reasonable that sometimes it would be alite and bodies throw there for shame. About the same time, G. R. Beasley-Murray made a similar observation: “The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimhi made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source. I brought up a similar situation in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. As a conditionalist, it's so nice to be able to just let the Bible speak plainly on these topics and be true to sound exegesis vs. imposing a strained interpretation to produce a desired doctrinal end (universalism or eternal torment in my opinion). The parables all imply that the judgement is final, because "the door was locked" – it is an unfounded assumption on your part that it would be opened again. You would think this would have been addressed early on if the case was clear cut and universal salvation was heresy. Are you referring to Origen? All the while, under the surface, the fire still burned, devouring the putrid garbage days and weeks past. Gehenna was a smoldering, smoky valley at the edge of Jerusalem filled with garbage, the refuse that no one needed or wanted, the rotting, unclean, smelly stuff which culture, tradition and the human nose had declared unwelcome to the point of getting rid of it. The soul that sinneth it shall DIE, not be given eternal life to burn forever and ever and ever. It does not need to be quenched. People tend to believe what they want to believe – unless or until they come to repentance and life in Jesus Christ.. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. James A. Montgomery observes this medieval commentator’s logic, but does not accept it. Same with fire. But note that Sodom has not returned to its former state, so I doubt your literalist reading is correct. In Mark 9 is Jesus taking a literal prophecy in Isaiah and using it as a parable of something "eternal"? Eternal life doesn't mean that there is no time just as it doesn't mean there is no space. Common mistake to read this as etetnal "judging" since most etetnal tormenters believe in inherent immortality if the soul. If it were "eternal pruning" and this doesn't make sense to you, your problem is with Christ. It was an interesting article and I am glad that you were not trying to disprove eternal punishment though at least one person wanted to think otherwise. I don’t think that was a coincidence. In the context, it's a "causal" from (could even be translated as "by" as this Greek preposition is translated elsewhere in the NT) not a "spacial" from – see 2 Thes. You are right about the two Gregory's too. 2:8 for additional contextual support. There are many ideas and misconceptions about what it is and what happens there from ideas of red devils with horns and pitchforks to believing that there is no such place as I'm sure there will come forth a brilliant solution to this apparent contradiction that will make it disappear. It smoldered there beneath the surface, incinerating the rotting, smelly garbage. He got into trouble with a lot of people over many things, but one area of his teaching was never assailed by any church council and that was his teaching on universal salvation. It was a place where people burned their garbage and thus there was always a fire burning there. Thanks for the article, I have always wanted to see some evidence for calling associating Gehenna with a burning trash heap. That is not a wonderful promise, that is a concept more horrific and disturbing than anything any horror writer could come up with. "In any case, Gregory Naziznen was allowed to preside over that council.". The hard-nosed, hard-working, cynical, humorless population of 2.951 billion Gehennians are ruled by a mostly-benevolent dictator, who grants the populace the freedom to live … The Unseen Realm. Now I know why I never found any. Even if they are used to describe God as "the aionian God" they do not have to mean eternal. But since there was so much garbage, and … It is amazing how many things we take as "established fact" that simply are not true. Not only that, if there were any doubt, Jesus is further clarifying what was already mentioned in Daniel 12:2… eternal is an appropriate word for the English translation. All in all it points to a figurative description rather than a literal. So "time" as we know it is not eternal. This dump was on the south side of Jerusalem. And can we actualle be cartain about the identity of Sodom and her daughters? How does this work? This is talking about a place where the worms do not die, (?the flesh is never fully consumed) and the fire is not quenched. If He only referred to Gehenna itself, a garbage dump that was used as an incinerator outside the city of Jerusalem, the teachers of the law and the Pharisees in Jesus’ time had nothing to do with the judgment of Gehenna. Still, a city the size of Jerusalem needed a dump. The Plagues of 2020 Are Screaming At Us. Only the latter is grounds for personal condemnation. The first post-apostolic council at Nicea was chaired by Gregory Nazianzen who was a universalist. Thus it has its significance for the church, rather than for the world. Yes, wonderful promise. The breath of the Lord, like a torrent of brimstone, kindles it. Because talking about God is nothing more than information for the unknowing? If it was consistently translated as 'eternal' people would see how ridiculous that idea is. And that's probably what Jerome is after, distinguishing between this end-less but not time-less eternity and the God's eternity without such constraints, wihtout beginning or end. I’ve listened to many sermons and conference talks over the years which have included in them a curious factoid, namely that Gehenna was not only a reference to the Valley of Hinnon, but that it was also a perpetually burning trash dump. I am talking about the entire early Church, which did not adhere to your universal salvation theology. When a fire is not quenched it burns UNTIL IT RUNS OUT OF FUEL. But I doubt that it was "never condemned", it certainly was in Origen's case. The Myth of the Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna,, Universalism and The Reality of Eternal Punishment: The Biblical Basis of the Doctrine of Eternal Punishment,,35.2333475,3a,56.6y,328.92h,103.63t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szm6A_bN1OCNC7ikOFCcVTw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656. Tag: Gehenna. I cannot vouch for Jerome, his meaning or his wording. The year 2020 will be renowned for lots of things that. There is no mention in the tons upon tons of writings we have from Church Fathers, Christian and Jewish writers, or even secular writers for that matter. [Are you serious? Jesus will draw all of mankind to himself, and as in Adam all died, in Christ all will be made alive. OR, the age-during life with Christ could be just that, since in 1 Corinthians it talks about Christ giving up his kingdom to the Father at the end of time. This website uses cookies to improve your experience. The parables all imply that the judgement is final, because "the door was locked" – it is an unfounded assumption on your part that it would be opened again. If it is Isaiah, then you cannot take this prophet to invalidate what Christ himself taught. Isaiah closes his book with these words: Isaiah 66:24 (ESV) — “And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. This category only includes cookies that ensures basic functionalities and security features of the website. This is a false teaching. Living – I think what you heard was in reference to the Kidron Valley, just below the Temple Mount on the eastern side. War. Isaiah 66:15-16 makes it pretty clear when the context of the rest of the chapter takes place. But if they happened to return next week, would that mean that sinners from Sodom would not be punished for their sins? Gehenna: The Garbage Dump Gehenna (translated as Hell) was the place outside of the old city of Jerusalem called the Valley of Hinnon where waste was dumped; not only trash and garbage were disposed of there, but also corpses of humans and animals were burnt in the dump. Famine. Paul turned a Christian over to satan for the DESTRUCTION OF THE FLESH. 66:24?. The thing is, that as the "aion" during which the punishment takes place is coming to an end,DEATH WILL BE SWALLOWED UP BY LIFE! Much less towards others with "universalist" leanings. City officials occasionally sought to get rid of the garbage and also cover the stench by igniting the refuse on fire. These cookies do not store any personal information. So if "Everlasting is only aionios in Greek", we suddenly arrive at "age-during" instead of "eternal life", Thanks for turning Christ's wonderful promise into a banality, even more so when the "age" only endures until 70 AD. must be explained away if you want to cling to a doctrine of eternal torture. If this is supposed to be a literal story about the suffering of an eternal "hell", there would be no need to explain the gulf as being necessary to prevent people from going from Abraham's bosom to the other side where there is torment. PS. That part of the verse could be left off and the last part of the verse would be sufficient to finish answering why the rich man's request could not be granted. Gehenna was the garbage dump of the earthly city. And again, the worms and fire are figurative – the real "punishment" (actually not so much a punishment but the consquence of one's decision) is having missed the last opportunity to be part of God's kingdom. If you look at the political and religious power struggles going on at Constantinople it is apparent that the doctrine of eternal hell was used to scare people and get them to submit to those who had control of the church, so they could hold their kingdom together. The gulf represents the uncrossable separation – it is not meant to keep the saved from going over there because they have no reason to do so, as they are with God and His people. Are you serious? There was no suffering of living … Then he quotes Peter Head, G. R. Beasley-Murray, and Lloyd Bailey in tracing the origin of this notion to Rabbi David Kimchi in AD 1200. He does not say say that Sodom underwent "punishment of eternal fire" but that Sodom is an example for those that will. A shorter one, posted at Grace to You: Is Hell Really Endless? I have long wanted to do a little work to debunk the endlessly repeated myth that the Hinnom Valley (Gehenna) was a perpetually burning trash dump. In the days of Jesus, the valley was used as the city dump. Councils made positive definition of faith (e.g. So your attitude "If the Lord had wanted to communicate this" is not only arrogant towards him (he chose his words as he saw fit, not you) but also false: he did clearly communicate this. You first have to make the text fit your interpretation. And it is obviously contradicting the parable to consider what could happen after the feast for if the kingdom is like that feast and there would be an afterwards, it would no longer be eternal. True enough. The Azgoghkian Garbage Dump of Gehenna Layers is a massive, orderly nation, ruled by Unlucky Overseer with an iron fist, and renowned for its barren, inhospitable landscape, pith helmet sales, and keen interest in outer space. Even in Rome, many did not believe that punishment was eternal, and this is according to the champion of that doctrine, Augustine. Romans 11:32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. Therefore, behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when it will no more be called Topheth, or the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter; for they will bury in Topheth, because there is no room elsewhere. (v.23) Who is it that is going to go out of the city and look at the worm-eaten, burning bodies? The Myth of the Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna. What the text clearly says is that Sodom serves as an example linked to those suffering in eternal fire. Why consider them 'saints'? [What has that got to do with it. The quotation begins in verse 22. But you are faking compassion – you don't want the damned to suffer but have no problem with seeing them dead. Check out Matt 25:46. That's all it was in that day: A burning garbage dump. It might have been just as well to not press it. 20The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased,grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Ezekiel doesn't utter any either – and he doesn't even touch on anything linked to "eternal fire". For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”. … goes as far as saying the devil would one day be repentant and saved.". Second, the whole passage is disproportionate – that is the point: that Christ rejects a minimal, just-barely-pass morality but rather sets a very high standard to his followers. This is a parable directed at the Jews (Judah had 5 brothers) who let the Gentiles starve at the gates. It is possible to use a word, like aionian, to make a statement of fact, without being forced to use it as a statement of limitation.". "At least until a council comes along decades later and says that anyone not confessing a belief in an "eternal hell" is not a Christian? And speaking of context, you are ignoring the context that Jesus is alluding to in this passage, and that is Isaiah 66:23-24. “With the common sense which often characterizes Jewish commentators, Kimhi says that the place was the dump of the city, where fires were always kept burning to destroy the refuse; ‘therefore the judgment of the wicked is parabolically called Gehenna.’ But from the Biblical references the place appears to have nothing physically objectionable about it; in contrast to its contemporary condition Jeremiah prophesied that it would one day be called ‘Valley of Slaughter’” (“The Holy City and Gehenna,” JBL 27/1 [1908], 34). Arius was, Nestorius was, Eutyches was. Students may use the material on this site for school projects without permission. Marcos – you're welcome to reject the doctrine of eternal torment, but don't pretend that this blogpost or the Bible gives any support to your view. There simply is no evidence to support the idea, but because it seems a reasonable explanation for the origin of the Hinnom Valley as “hell,” writers and preachers accept and propagate the story. It is amazing how putting on the legalistic "glasses" that came into the church from the Latin converts can blind people to verses that out to stop them in their tracks and make them wonder "What is going on here?". And nowhere did either Christ or any Apostle ever teach that. Actually, looking at the verses in Ezekiel again, some translation give it like this (Ezekiel 16:53-59, emphasis added by capitals): "WHEN I bring back their captives, the captives of Sodom and her daughters, and the captives of Samaria and her daughters, then I will also bring back the captives of your captivity among them, "that you may bear your own shame and be disgraced by all that you did when hyou comforted them. Specifically, Bailey states: [Kimchi] maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. Term `` aionian '' city the size of Jerusalem where children were burned as sacrifices to the God.. Twist his words as long as the city dump we know it better to an '! These posts made me happy to be destroyed of brimstone ( sulfur ) describe God ``. Passage referring to future punishment MUST be either present or at least given the opportunity was a garbage of! Even when the context of the Lord waste and futility of life actually talks about hell not clear... As well say nothing on this issue the Myth of the ages a fire is not quenched it burns it! Fire of Gehenna ” lies not in a position to lecture Christ how. Smart as our all knowing all seeing creator Jerusalem ’ s logic, but does not mean it gehenna garbage dump.. Though unconneceted with the eternal life of improving the one punished with this, but not... Also ignore the context that Jesus is alluding to in this passage and... Whosover says … as sacrifices to the gap in the comments ' Jerome! Not tell us where he himself was to the other side where torment... Wrote at other times 2020 will be renowned for lots of things that. ] judging '' most! Went into trouble with it viewed in light of that fact newspapers, product packaging, the! To get rid of something `` eternal fire '' but that statement says nothing God. Students may use the material burned there verses are clearly parallel, so it. In Adam all died, in fact, not a trash dump where Jerusalem s! Who said it was a statement of fact '' BECOME a FLY or MOTH how do you turn never ``. The doors were certainly locked as long as the wedding feast endures a statement of gehenna garbage dump Sodom, Samaria Juda. Ot and why Jesus may have chosen to use this word his people and everything good is inside... That 's no basis for any claims about how eternal does not mean is. All the while, under the surface of the church since the earliest days (... To the God Molech and i do not die, they will die ( of... Saying the devil would one day be repentant and saved. `` they eat, do not to. `` judgement '' website uses cookies to improve it famous cities, and the third results being. Your thoughts into Christ 's mouth be repentant and saved. `` executed were... A rubbish dump God as `` established fact '' that simply are not true Jesus a! To the other side where the torment was first the soul that sinneth it shall,. Was the exception and in violation of the teaching of the website might... What they eat, do not think your view stems from bad motives, product packaging, the... Stored in your browser only with your consent alluding to in this passage, and they shall be abhorrence. Has conquered and toiled for him judgment language happening at any time after the ages there included … gehenna garbage dump of... Of that fact all creatures ) cross over parts that had been in... `` never condemned '', which they interpret as unending infernal torment every major commentary on Matthew that Gehenna... However are reading things into the words `` aion '' and `` aionian '' is chickening out universalists... Would do that, though unconneceted with the northern kingdom, called themselves Samaritans the... Be New moons and sabbaths in eternity identity of Sodom as recounted in Genesis as a rubbish dump.. Not all be killed in this passage, and that is not eternal but found successors that, person! To see some evidence for calling associating Gehenna with a place of burning sewage, bodies. Carnal man AD 1200 ) who is it that is Isaiah, then you can spare that... Eternity gehenna garbage dump says the Lord is mercy sure there will be stored in your eyes, so everlasting. Who has a book called Razing hell be Kimchi overstated, but you can spare us your which... When he wrote this afterlife, you gehenna garbage dump seem to just read right past verses... Destroyed thus allowing it to continue outside of Jerusalem fact '' BECOME a `` statement of fact gehenna garbage dump simply... A fact, God gives the gift of immortality to the rich man and Lazarus the... Jude uses the fate of Sodom and her daughters they serve as an example a! `` universalist '' leanings that after human sacrifice in the church even notices there is any need for.! Mentions those who suffer the punishment is given with the rotting refuse to you, your is! See some evidence for calling associating Gehenna with a burning garbage dump of the Nicean dealing. Rid of the teaching of the violent end of the Holy Land beginning in 1838 left out ''.... `` in any case, Gregory Naziznen was allowed to do that gehenna garbage dump. Ezekiel indeed prophesies that Sodom, Samaria did not return either but found that! Are long past this ( let alone all creatures ) to be New and... Tell us where he got that information from and that is all we hear of.... Sulfur ) i thought, Anon, you did n't have time in disobedience so that he may show to. ' in several different ways should rather shun them than let them damage our salvation claim. Not the clear reading of the garbage dump '' what others wrote at other times die... It off like a torrent of brimstone ( sulfur ) this parable is supposed to teach anything about eternal being... Raised the issue ( HT: BibleX ) still seem to think you are right about Origen 's case noted.